Healthy Mindset Miracles
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Healthy Mindset Miracles
Ep.004 - Transforming Grief into Resilience: The Inspiring Journey of Tonje Wyn-Jones
Episode 004
Have you ever wondered how it feels to hold joy and grief simultaneously? Embrace the courageous journey of Tonje Wyn-Jones, a consultant, coach, and entrepreneur who turned her personal experience of loss into an inspiring mission of transformation. We talk about her experience of losing her daughter, how she found strength in her grief and how she aims to change the lives of 100 million people by 2040.
The holiday season can prove to be a challenging time, especially when you're grieving the loss of a loved one. Tonje shares her strategies on navigating this tricky terrain, from creating new traditions to cherishing memories. She shares how she found solace in audiobooks and podcasts and how they helped her find joy in her grief. Tonje's insights on how to be there for your loved ones, especially during the festive season, is a discussion you won't want to miss.
Lastly, we dive into Tonje's upcoming course, Grief Untangled, a deep exploration of the three phases of grief -- despair, receptive, and resignation or enlightenment. In our conversation, we uncover how we can support those who are grieving by creating safe spaces for conversations around loss and honoring the memories of our loved ones. Join us for this poignant and insightful episode, as we glean wisdom from Tonje's inspiring journey from grief to resilience and purpose.
Blog: www.tonjewynjones.com/blog
Instagram: @tonjewynjones
Topics spoken about:
•Grief vs Mourning
•Heightened Grief during Holidays and good times
•So many who grieve hate the holidays -Doesn't have to be this way
•Open conversations about grief - no more Taboo
•In my upcoming course I go deep into the '3 Phases of Grief' (despair, receptive and resignation/enlightenment) a model I created to help people give appropriate support - I can give a brief explanation
•I also go deep on my 3'dos and 3 dont's of support. I could Share 1 do and 1 dont...
•Suggestion for how someone can help a loved one who's grieving during the holidays
•The importance of leading with compassion in all situations
Would like to dedicate this Episode in memory of Becky Marie, Kory Delane Watson, and Lacey Marie whom received their wings on 10/22/2023 and their children and family that were involved in the accident and will be going through the pain of loss.
Thank you for tuning in to this empowering episode of Healthy Mindset Miracles." We hope you found inspiration and insight into the journey of redefining your mindset.
If you have any questions or would like to share your own experiences, please visit our website:
www.healthymindsetmiracles.com
We welcome your stories and inquiries. If you are interested in being a guest send us a message under contact us in the website.
Stay tuned for more episodes where we continue to explore the path to healing and well-being. Until we meet again, may you discover a healthy mindset in your life. 🌟
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All right, so welcome to Healthy Mindset Miracles. It is important to be aware of potential triggers that might arise during this discussion, so before we dive in, please note that there is a disclaimer. I am not a licensed mental health professional or a certified therapist. While we aim to inspire and educate, information provided is not to replace professional advice or treatment. If you or someone you know is in need of mental health support, we strongly encourage seeking qualified mental health professionals. We are pleased to have Tanya Wynne Jones joining us today. Tanya is a coach, a consultant and an entrepreneur, but she's also a mom, a survivor, and is a passionate learner who has not only journeyed through the heart-wrenching experience of losing her daughter, but she has turned the pain into a powerful mission to equip 100 million people by 2040 in the emotional intelligence and resilient mindsets required to create amazing, fulfilling lives empowered by their challenges, and turning taboo subjects like death and grief into a catalyst for meaningful conversations, stronger communities and transformative personal growth.
Speaker 1:With the holiday season approaching, tanya is here to share some invaluable insights on how we can be there for our loved ones. Trust me, by the end of our chat, you'll be looking at grief support in a whole new light. Thank you so much for joining us. You are beautiful, your spirit is beautiful. Your story is heart-wrenching. However, your victories are probably one of the best stories that I've heard, so let's talk a little bit about. One of the topics that you wanted to talk about was grief and mourning, and I know hearing the story of losing your daughter. That was unexpected. Can you talk about that a little bit for our viewers, to hear what you went through during those times?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me and talk about my. Do you mean, do you want me to talk about my?
Speaker 1:daughter. So you went through some experience, times of you had a beautiful baby and that's one of the things that's hard for us as mothers to experience a loss of our child and you did go through that heart-wrenching moments. But you turned what you had gone through into something beautiful to be able to help others. And I know there are mothers out there that have probably experienced the same thing that you're experiencing, or maybe experiencing a child that's sick right now. Those are moments that it's hard to recover from, but you've been able to turn that grief into something amazing in the light of your daughter, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, yeah, my let's say, yeah, it's a loaded big question. That's why I just needed to kind of clarify where you wanted to start for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when I reflect on my life or my life story, I kind of have to split my life into two now, two parts, and I have my life that was before 2018, and then I have my life after, because in February 2018, that's when my daughter died, and it's hard for people outside to understand. But when something like that happens, your life shaft is. Your entire reality just falls apart, and then you try. To often you think that okay, well. But then you mend it, you build up and yet you put things back together and you get back to life. But that's not normally how it actually tends to happen.
Speaker 2:You your life is destroyed and you have to create a new one. And that's definitely how it was for me. Once I started to get my head back up to the surface, I knew I had to find a new way to live. I had to find a new purpose and meaning in my life, and that's when I really tapped into this need to help people, which I'd always had. But I've been able to just kind of live my comfortable normal life. But now I needed a stronger meaning and that's why it brought me into doing coaching and setting my mission to help others to go through this.
Speaker 1:I think that's beautiful because I feel like when you help others, it helps you as well and it helps you grow through some of those painful moments when you, your little girl, was really little. She was young and you didn't have a whole lot of time with her, but you were able to. Those times that you did have with her. You were able to capture those memories and hold them dear. But in the light of the challenges that you went through when you lose yourself from losing something so precious in your life you've been able to turn that around and start helping others. Where did that start for you when you started helping others?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what? The first thing that really knocked me out of my kind of pause where you just you're just getting up in the morning, you're in the deep pit of grief and you use all your strength to just get up the thing that got me out of that was actually my other daughter. She was three and a half at the time. So my daughter passed away. She was one and a half. My older daughter was three and a half and Well, all of a sudden well, it felt like all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:It wasn't all of a sudden, but it felt like it I noticed that she was asking me about 50 times a day are you okay, mama, are you okay? And it just, it was like it. I just got stabbed. It was a shock when I realized what was going on. She was three and a half. It was not her job to be looking out for me. She shouldn't be worried about how I'm doing. That's what really. That's what really made me get grounded and reevaluate and see that, okay, I can't just live to live. Because that's what I was doing. I was getting up, I was living life for her. She was. She got me out of bed in the morning. I knew I had to get up and make her food and get her off to kindergarten and I thought I was doing okay with that. I didn't see really value in my life except for being there for her. My happiness didn't matter anymore. I didn't feel like I yeah, I didn't feel like I needed the happiness, even because I was just grieving.
Speaker 1:Right. I think some people feel like they don't deserve happiness, when they lose somebody they love.
Speaker 1:They feel like how can I be happy when the one that I love is not here anymore and they can't join in that happiness with me? And I think a lot of people have that thoughts and those feelings. But it's beautiful about your daughter, your oldest one, who is resilient, because that's the word that comes through my mind. She's very resilient. You know, scripture tells us that we should have a childlike heart and a childlike mind throughout our lives. And if you watch a child and my own daughter, she was 13 when her father passed away and I remember the day and this may be, if I cry or you cry, we're going to cry together. I'm just going to tell you that right now. I'll just warning trigger warning for those that are going to hear this story.
Speaker 1:But so my daughter's father he had prostate cancer and he was in. He was in hospice at the time and we knew it was, it was coming to the end, but it still wasn't any easier. And what was hard for me was that my daughter, her dad, was her best friend and they did everything together. They were going to shoot guns, he taught her how to hunt, he taught her how to do all kinds of amazing things, and they always did everything together, and when he was, they had just given him some morphine to to relax him and stuff, and he wasn't waking up. And I remember my daughter the last time we saw them or saw him, she came to me and she says mama, she's like, I don't want to go back. I think I've said goodbye to dad. I don't want to go back. I don't want to watch him die, I just want to remember him the way he is, and I thought, wow, how can a 13 year old girl be so resilient and to say that Meanwhile I'm bawling my eyes out. I don't know how to handle what had just transpired.
Speaker 1:And the next day, though, that night, we found out that our best friend's mother passed away unexpectedly, which is really the oddest thing ever, and so I took her to her best friend's house just to help cumber her best friend, and she stayed the night there. And the next morning we got the phone call that her father passed away, and I called her and I said baby, I need to come see you. I'm going to come pick you up. I think we're going to have to talk. And she says daddy's gone, isn't he? And I said yes, baby, daddy's gone. I said I don't even want to tell you that over the phone, I want to tell you that in person. And she says it's okay, mommy, she goes, it's okay, he's not hurting anymore.
Speaker 1:And the resilience of a child. To say that it really struck me Like she's the one that got me through, that. She's the one that even today she talks about her dad as if he's still here and she shares this memory. So to hear your daughter, at three years old, to be so resilient is such a beautiful thing. That childlike mind and that childlike heart is what we should cherish. And for you to say that that's what helped you, do you feel like her resilience and her strength is what you're saying that strengthened you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was definitely because I was already saying, I was already thinking to myself that that was my reason for a living, was to be there for her, and then I realized that I'm doing a crap job because now she's looking after me, she's worried about me. So, yeah, we've always tried to have a very open discussion and dialogue about after Aliyah died. We've always tried to have an open discussion and dialogue with her about everything surrounding it, because we don't, we didn't know what she would remember, how she would remember, if she would confuse things. You didn't even we couldn't even tell her what happened.
Speaker 2:So a child is going to make up their stories. But you're so right, they're so resilient in many ways, but at the same time, your daughter was 13. That's such a strong story you're telling. Yeah, mine at three and a half. She was very mature in many ways, but at the same time, you don't, you can't talk to them quite as well as you can to a 13 year old to see what's actually going on, what they actually caught and what they're saying. So there's that danger there that they're saying and sounding very mature and then that's not quite as mature as they are, you know.
Speaker 1:At three years old? Did she talk about her sister still? Did she still ask questions at all?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, we talk about her a lot. She remembers her well. We set aside time to memorize her and look at photos and pictures, which I think is such a valuable tool that we have. Now they can, we can help. We can help make sure that she remembers her sister by continuously showing pictures and videos of her and talking about her. And, yeah, she remembers her very well.
Speaker 1:How old is she today? She's now nine. She's nine years old. And so, through from three years old to nine years old, and then through those times of you trying to get through the healing, where did you start turning your grief into the positive of helping others? At what point did you do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. Well, the first step on that was actually it kind of came out of the blue. I was out on a walk with my dogs and I was listening to an audiobook. I don't remember the name of the audiobook because there's only this one thing I remember from it, and in the book the author was saying how happiness is our normal level.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I was like what do you mean? And he kept going you're saying like, yeah, you don't need anything to be happy because that's our baseline, that's where you should be as happy. And then something happens and you can be upset or overjoyed, but your baseline should be happy and right. I remember I paused the book because I was thinking like I've been going around thinking I have no reason to be happy. You know I have no, because it wasn't good enough, they weren't strong enough. It's like, yes, I have my beautiful other daughter, I have my husband, I have other things, but they're not strong enough, but they're not stronger than the loss of my daughter. And with this realization I thought to myself, okay, if I don't need anything to make me happy, I could do that. But then I didn't want to give up my grief. And then I realized, well, you know, I can actually be happy and grief at the same time.
Speaker 1:So explain that. How do you do that? How do you be happy and grief at the same time? Because I'm certain the listeners are going to hear that and I want to hear that as well. So how did you figure that out?
Speaker 2:Because the grief is a it's like a portion in me, it's like it's like something internal in me that is never going to leave me, and I actually don't want it to, because it's my, because that was what was holding me back. I didn't want to give up my grief, because my grief is like my tie to my daughter.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, yeah, that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I did not want to give that up and that was holding me back from from being happy, from enjoying life again because I was. I was like no, I cannot let go of this grief, because then that's letting go of my daughter. So so I figured, well, I don't have to let that go, because I can hold on to that, have that as in me, as a part of me, but I can still be happy, I can still smile, I can still enjoy my life because you're able to do that duality. If you look at it, we do it all the time.
Speaker 2:And especially if you reflect back to kids, right, they're continuously going up and down in between emotions, writing them like waves, like we should be doing too.
Speaker 1:Within split seconds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you can do times. In the beginning it was more up and down like that, almost like a roller coaster, so I would allow myself moments of joy and know that I still have my grief. It didn't mean I let it go, I was just kind of going in between and then after a while it actually became like parallel tracks, so I can have both at the same time really. But that just took time and I guess, training in a way. But in the beginning, yeah, it's more, it's just knowing that you don't have to give it up.
Speaker 1:So I heard you say you were listening to an audiobook and that helped you kind of get to that realization that you can have both grief and happiness throughout the healing portion of your accepting the grief and happiness and simultaneously Did you continue to listen to books and continue to seek out information to help you with mindset on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely, absolutely. I have been doing that nonstop for the last like six years now, or five and a half years. I am always listening to something or doing something. There's just so much value in tapping into other people's experiences and knowledge Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I found for me. Anytime I'm going through some kind of really hard part in my life, I find that audios or podcasts or books or something to dive myself into, to check my mindset really helps a lot, because for me, when I'm reading a book, I put myself in that book and I vision myself. What I'm reading is coming alive within my life. Do you see yourself doing the same thing? Because most people that I've talked to that have found victory or have found miracles in our life. That's what they experienced as well. So I'm hearing that's what you did too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I do that, and then, at the same time, I also. I look very much at it, as you can try to figure things out on your own. You can probably do it, but it's going to take you a long time.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So by listening to audiobooks and doing courses and podcasts and everything, it's like skipping ahead? Yes, absolutely, and I love putting my audiobooks on double speed. So then I just really get everything out of it, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's just super efficient as well, and then you can pick and choose Right, and I think that's so valuable as well. It's like whenever I because I think it's important to to be not one tracked. You need to kind of get diversified. The information you put in take in, but you can pick and choose what you want to take out of it.
Speaker 2:You don't have to take everything on board, because somebody's story is their story and not everything's going to align to you. But you might find something there like that one audiobook there. There wasn't that much in it, but there was that one pivotal thing for me, mm, hmm, other things that I've gotten like lots out of. So it's it varies, but it's still valuable. I think almost everything, if not everything, you can get some kind of value out of it.
Speaker 1:That's interesting that you say that, because there's spend times where I read a book and I get something out of that one chapter that would really meant a lot to me, and that one chapter and then I might put that book down and not read it again for three years and I'll pick it back up and a totally new chapter jumps out at me, like the one that meant so much to me really didn't mean that much to me. Three years later, something else did, and it's the same thing like if you are listening to a song and it makes you move and you're excited, but then later on you listen to the song again and the same vibes not there. Yeah, you're like. Yeah, I'm not dancing like I was this morning. Did you always get something different based on where you're at at that moment?
Speaker 1:There was a book that I had on my shelf for like forever and ever and I never picked it up. But then when I finally did pick it up, it was because I was finally ready to receive it. So one of the other topics that you have on here is heightened grief during holidays, and we do have Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up and some there's there's some people that celebrate this, some people don't, and there's other holidays that people do, so there's a lot of challenges when it comes to holidays and not having that loved one with you anymore. How are you able to get through the holidays during those times?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the holidays can definitely be tough and for the first couple years they were for me as well. The thing with holidays is and it kind of because this goes back to um, well, I guess maybe first, if we looked at because we we briefly touched or you asked me initially about the the difference between grief and mourning. Just to say quickly there, you know, mourning is the outward expression. Now, if you're in mourning during the holidays, it's going to be a bit different because you you have your kind of sets. Normally. You have your set things that you go through during mourning. But if you're in grief, that's something that you carry with you and that's your internal expression of loss. And when it comes to grief, for most people very often the hardest times are the best times.
Speaker 2:So when you're supposed to be the happiest when everybody's smiling and laughing. That's when you feel the grief the most, because that's when you miss the person the most, because you want them to be there. So it's a it seems like a paradox from the outside, because you're smiling and people tend to think then oh, you're smiling, so you must be happy, you must be feeling good, and then they might even tell you that, and then it's like a stab and you go like, oh, my god, they think I'm not missing my daughter anymore, and then you get the guilt of it and it all packs on. So there's a lot of nuances that come to play, but it tends to really heighten both the sense of grief because you're missing the person, but also like, maybe, isolation, because you don't. You feel like you can't partake, because then you're not respecting the last one.
Speaker 2:We also have that, the problems of, like I said, the guilt that often comes with it and you're not allowing yourself to be happy and enjoy because you feel like you might not be respecting your loved one. So there's a lot of of heavy emotions there. I think that the thing when it comes to holidays is that it is gonna like the first one is probably gonna be difficult, no matter what. It's just it's hard to get around that, but you just have to let it be.
Speaker 2:You have to let it be hard one All the firsts after a lot are especially difficult, you know the first birthday, the first anniversary, the first Christmas, the first, everything, all the firsts. They are very, very heavy, but as you progress they don't have to be a constant source of grief and misery. You can learn to enjoy it again, and I would love to see more people be able to do that.
Speaker 1:I would too. I saw, I heard a story recently, and I don't know where it was or who it was, but I will tell you that I thought it was very beautiful and it actually has to do with the wedding, because weddings are one of the things that where you definitely miss your loved ones, especially if it's a father that passed away and you don't have your father walking you down the aisle or a mother. What they did was they had on both sides the groom side and the bride side they had lost members of the family, very, you know, close members of father or mother or things like that. And what they did was so beautiful so they had set up in the hallway pictures of the family members that were not able to come or that had were no longer with us, and they set up like a almost like a memorial, like a memory of them. But they also had empty chairs for them, as if they were there with their pictures on the chairs. So it helped them feel like they were there, even though they physically weren't there, like they felt, like their spirit was there, and I thought that was very beautiful and I've seen a lot of people do that where a family member is no longer there and they had their picture. Have an open chair for them or something like that. And I was sitting here thinking, as you were speaking about the holidays, I not do that for a Thanksgiving dinner have a chair open and put their picture there as if they're there. Or in Christmas, have their picture on the tree, or you give a gift to them this a thank you gift, or something to say that we know that you're here, your spirits with us, because that's a great way to memorize the person that you miss and that you love, but also still have them a part of the festivities that are going on.
Speaker 1:So my husband now his late wife passed away 37 years of the stomach cancer and his. So we had pictures of her around our home and we always spoke to the children about her. We still speak about her all the time as if she's still exist, and I think that has helped the his children to just know that it's acceptable to speak about those that we miss, it's acceptable to have them spiritually join in on the things that we do and keep their memories alive. I know that you guys talk about your daughter and you share pictures and things like that, but do you recommend people doing that as well, like sharing those memories, talking about those that they lost, never, ever forgetting them, because we're never gonna forget them?
Speaker 1:Think about, okay, I know one day I'm not gonna be here hopefully it's a long time and I'm well into my late years of life but I just I feel like I would want my family to be happy to go on and do the things in life that is gonna make them happy experience things, because life doesn't stop. It does not stop that things keep going. People still keep going to work, people still have bills to pay, they still have food they need to eat, they still have to go to the bathroom. You life just does not stop, but it doesn't mean that you can't think of them, the person that you lost, and positive memories. Do you agree with that, tanya?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, I think it's so important and it's it's a very good point that you bring up and it is something that people veer away from a lot. Actually, very often people seem to well, they get scared of actually even mentioning a departed right because they don't want to bring you down, they don't want to bring down the mood or upset you. And actually a friend of mine, she who lost her son, she said it nicely, she was a bit surprised and she said people tend to tell her that or actually somebody was mentioned said something about her son not realizing that he was dead and she said, oh yeah, no, he passed away and the other person was like, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to mention she's like well, why are you sorry? You know? Oh, I didn't want to remind you. It's like you cannot remind me of my son. That actually implies that I forgot. I'm never gonna forget my son wow so, and it's.
Speaker 2:That was beautifully said yeah, and it's so important, but people tend to think that. But it's. We need to get out of the worry about that constant worry about being discomfort and, like you, said open conversations about grief no more taboo.
Speaker 1:That was one of the topics we were gonna talk about. That's beautiful to have those open conversations, like when we talk about my daughter's father, talk about him as if he's still here. We talk about the things that he loved and we'll see something and we'll be out and about and we'll go oh, daddy would have loved that. That's so awesome, that's right up his alley. And you talk about things like that. We don't act as if it's a taboo thing and we shouldn't be talking about him. We act as if he's still walking with us in the mall or he's with us at whatever event that we're in, because he, that person, will always be with you. No matter what you do, they will always be with you.
Speaker 1:I look at it this way too. If I'm going out of town by myself and my husband doesn't come with me, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna forget who my husband is or where I come from. He's gonna be with me. He just won't physically be with me. Yeah, I can pick up a phone and talk to him on the phone, but there's gonna be moments where I'm gonna be busy, but I'm still gonna be thinking about him. It's the same thing. You don't stop thinking about that loved one. You just don't. But why not think about the positive things? Why not think about those good memories and keep those alive? Because those things are what's gonna keep a smile on your face. Those things are the ones that they're gonna help you get through. I'm a true believer that we are in control of our thoughts, our feelings and our emotions. And how do we want to handle our day? And we get to make that choice. How do you want to? Handle that.
Speaker 1:So you have an upcoming course that goes deep into three phases of grief, despair, receptive and resignation enlightenment. I would love you to talk about those courses coming up, because I think that's a brilliant thing that you're doing. I think many people need this course, and I actually want to be able to not only share it with my listeners, but I also want to share it with other family members that I have. So can you talk about that? What is this course about and where would our listeners find this course?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. So this course is a it's called grief untangled and it's a course to help people become better at supporting their loved ones through grief. So I'm actually doing recording right now and it should probably be launching at the beginning of the year I'm hoping for the beginning of January, so it's not out yet, but I will definitely be posting the launch on my Instagram and on the blog as well. But, yeah, the course goes into well, it's going with steep into explaining what grief is, how it manifests in different ways and how you can better understand the person.
Speaker 2:And then we go into explaining the phases, which is a model I've developed and very many people know of the five stages of grief, which is developed by Kubler Ross I think it was in 1969 or something like that which are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. The problem I found with this model it's a good model and it's very widely used and accepted. It explains the emotions that a person typically goes through in grief, but it's not a linear ladder so you can move back and forth and up and down. It's very varied from person to person. It's I find it's valuable on a personal level where you can see okay, I'm feeling these crazy emotions and I can see that it's normal that most people go through this. But as a supporter, it's less useful because it's not predictable. You don't know it. Just because they're feeling angry now doesn't mean that they're going to be in the acceptance phase after right.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I developed a model that I call the three phases, which is a lot simpler, but it's the first phase, is the despair. So this is the initial toughest phase, normally right. It's normally right after it happens. The length is going to vary, obviously, and it's not set, but it's typically right after. And that's where you're not receptive. That's where you know just getting through the day is challenging enough, just getting up in the morning.
Speaker 2:Then once you start like getting, like I was saying, you start getting your head a little bit out of the water, trying to float again. Then that's the receptive phase. Now this is where you're trying to see what's my new purpose, how can I keep living, how can I find my meaning in my life? And people start getting curious and this is when they might be getting ready to talk to somebody.
Speaker 2:And then the third phase, which is split either resignation or enlightenment, because it varies, like some will go to resignation and some will go to enlightenment and some will do both or go back and forth, but this is where you start living again. So, either whether that is going back to your old life as good as you can what you used to do, and just finding a way to bring the grief with you or to carry on with your life, or if it's like me, I found new purpose with my life, that's more the enlightened version. So the reason that these phases are so important is because where you're at in your grief is gonna determine what type of support you need. And for a supporter, knowing and recognizing these phases and knowing what to look for, you can also know how to best support your loved ones.
Speaker 1:I love that yeah thank you.
Speaker 1:That is so amazing that you're putting your time and your thoughts and your efforts into opening those three phases of grief to help people get through those moments. There's so many people that need that right now. There's a lot of people that need that support. They need to know what's next and I think, in a way, you're gonna be laying that out to what's next, right? Yeah, so I see here that you said that you're gonna go deep onto your three dos and don'ts of support and you could share one do and one don't. So go ahead. What does one do?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, one do which is kind of a do and a don't, but it's get out of your ego. This is the biggest. I love that thought, yeah, get out of your ego. And then this goes back to what we talked about a little bit before the discomfort right. Okay.
Speaker 2:So often we react straight away because we're so afraid of being uncomfortable ourselves, and that's our ego trying to protect us. So I would like people to just take a pause. Whenever you're actually confronting anyone, if you're talking to them, if you're trying to support them, whatever it is, if you can take a moment to pause and just reflect and see okay, am I coming out of my ego or I'm actually trying to help this other person? Because most of the time when you come with a quick remark like, oh, they're in a better place right now, that's just you desperately trying to find something to say so that you don't have to stand there and be uncomfortable. If you take a moment to reflect, it's like okay, what does that you saying that? Does that actually help them or does it help you? Are you saying this because that's what they need and it will help them, or is it just because you're trying to find something to fill the void with?
Speaker 1:That is a very good point. I was gonna say that ego. They always say that it stands for edging greatness out, and so if you have that ego, you're edging out that greatness. That could be possible for you and for your life. And also, I feel like when you have an ego, it actually keeps you in a comfort zone. So if you don't get yourself out of your comfort zone and stretch yourself, you're never gonna be able to get better right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually think that I very much agree with what you say. I mean, I think we all have our ego. I know our ego is there to protect us and I think that the ego has value and I think it's something you need to, at least the way I look at my ego. I buy my ego. I look at it as my protector. I actually think of my ego as my German shepherd that's always trying to protect me. Sometimes I have to tell them to go lie over there, go sit in the corner, because I don't need you right now. I'm okay, I'm actually safe. It's a very different thing when you look at how we live now to how our ancestors lived. They needed to be safe in a very different way than we are. We are safe. We don't have lions to run away from.
Speaker 2:So we're running away from emotions and they're not gonna kill us. So that's when I think that we need to like just take a moment and just reflect and see is this actually serving right now?
Speaker 1:So there is a good ego, and then there is an ego that prevents you from being able to be the best that you can be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like you said so well, that it holds you back because it definitely does Like your ego is trying to keep you safe. But, when you're in a safe, comfortable place, you don't grow. We don't grow out of comfort, right? We grow out of discomfort. So, just like you were saying, it holds you back but at the same time, it is there to protect you.
Speaker 1:So it's like a fine line and you gotta know where that balance is. Balance it out. I love that.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to supporting others, you cannot come from your ego, because if you wanna truly support someone else, it's not about you.
Speaker 1:Right, that is exactly right. That is exactly right. I love that you said that, because a lot of people you think about this too. If they're sitting in their comfort zone, they make it about them because that's what they're comfortable about. They're comfortable surrounding themselves, in their own thoughts, their own emotions. When you stretch yourself and you get yourself out of that comfort zone, then it doesn't become about you, it becomes about what you can do for others.
Speaker 1:What can you do to stretch yourself, to reach out and help others, because helping other people is not comfortable. It is not comfortable at all. There's a lot of stretching that happens. There's a lot of challenges. That happens when it comes to helping somebody else, but you're also putting yourself out there, which can be extremely uncomfortable. So let's go into what your don't is what is your number one, don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the number one don't. And this is a big one, and it's avoidance. Yeah, this is a big one, and it's ironically the one that I think very many people think is the most innocent. So this can look as simple as seeing somebody in the grocery store that you have gone through a tough time or are going through a tough time, and you're seeing them a couple of aisles down and you go like, oh, I don't know what to do, I'll just pretend like I don't see them and carry on. The problem is that somebody who's grieving or having a tough time, they're already in a position where they feel like outsiders. You're already so vulnerable that you have these heightened senses.
Speaker 2:And I can say from my own experience as well. I could tell straight away when somebody was avoiding me.
Speaker 2:You get so, so sensitive to it and it is so painful Because and this is wow it's ingrained in us as a human survival, because for our ancestors, being shunned meant death. Right, so it's so important for us we feel it so strongly. Even though it doesn't mean death anymore, emotionally, the toll is still as strong, right, so that's one part of it. Right, it's just the. Whenever somebody's trying to go like, oh, I don't know what to say, I'm just gonna pretend like nothing and move away, that's like a punch in the gut for the other person and then they feel like, oh yeah, that's confirmation, I am an outsider.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you a question on avoidance. So what I'm hearing is that when you have just lost somebody, and somebody that you normally talk to, that you consider an acquaintance or a friend, they're avoiding you, avoiding to speaking with you because they don't know what to say. What would you do in that aspect? Would you go up to them and say, hi, I just wanted to say I look beautiful today, or just to show them it's okay to approach you, or how would you handle that?
Speaker 2:You mean as the non-breeding person?
Speaker 1:Let's say I like, hypothetically, I was the one that lost somebody that I love. And then I see a friend that I normally talk to you all the time in the grocery store. But I can obviously see they're trying to avoid me because maybe they're not sure how to approach me because I just lost somebody and they don't want to cause me to be upset or something. So they go on their way. Do I go up to them to let them know that I'm in a safe place and it's okay to say hi, or how would you handle that? And then let's flip it on the opposite side and talk about somebody who you know that had just lost somebody. How would you handle that as well, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So well, if you have just lost somebody, then you probably won't be strong enough to do that. If you are strong enough to go up to somebody and tell them like, hey, I'm okay, you can come talk to me, I'd like that, then that's amazing, but that is hard to do, like that's very, very difficult, especially when you are so vulnerable and down, like I said it's.
Speaker 2:I remember my first times around to the grocery store after losing my daughter, and I was struggling to stay on my feet just going up and down the aisles. There was no chance I would have been able to go up and confront people in that manner, but at the same time, what we did a bit later was because my daughter was in kindergarten when she passed away.
Speaker 2:She was at home but she started kindergarten. So after I don't remember how much time had passed weeks or months, I don't know. It was kind of confusing at the time. But me and my husband invited the kindergarten teachers to our house and we they came over and they sat down and we started talking to them like we. If you have, we understand, if you guys have any questions, maybe you want to ask us, and because we knew that our other daughter was in that kindergarten, nobody knew anything and people are talking and they have to deal with the kids, they have to support our daughter and all the other kids are going to be asking questions.
Speaker 1:That was brilliant for you guys to do that, by the way to you know, because you were thinking about your daughter and her experience in school and you wanted to speak to the teachers. That was brilliant.
Speaker 2:I don't think many parents know to do that yeah and also the other kids, right, because they just, you know, even though they're young, they just suddenly, like one of one of their own was gone, right, right, which is not normal thing to happen. So we invited them to the house and we had a really nice long chat and they were able to ask us questions. So initially, when they came, you could see they were all kind of like they were really nervous about coming. They were not saying anything, everybody was quiet. By the time they left they were like, oh, thank you so much for having us, thank you so much for, like, I never would have expected that this could have worked and that you were able to do this and let us know this and we really, really appreciate it. And you can see that a way to just been lifted off their shoulders.
Speaker 2:Right, because they came. They're not like being all stressed out and that's what very often happens. But we were able to do that together, me and my husband, because we were in a controlled environment, right, we invited them home into our living room and we had set the stage for it, which made us a bit stronger and able to do it, and we had the motivation, right, we had a reason to do it, but in a in a passing, like out on the street where there's so much else going on, I wouldn't have been able to do that myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I you know what I'm going to tell you something. For you and your husband to do something like that First of all, they could have been the one that was doing the avoidance they were avoiding having that conversation with the two of you and, in fear that it might cause some other emotions come up or has you guys to have some deep grief in front of them, and maybe they were fearful of that but for you to show them the strength that you had to bring them into your home to talk about the scenario and the situation for your daughter that was in their classes, I just want to tell you that's inspiring, very, very inspiring and I hope that there's other listeners that if you have children that are in school and they have other classmates, if you get an opportunity to speak with their teachers, I highly recommend it, just like Tanya did and her husband did, because, tanya, do you feel like that experience actually set the tone for the rest of her school years?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I definitely think so. We we've had such a close relationship with the kindergarten ever since that and my, my older daughter they would. They would hold space for her in a way that I don't know if they would have been able to do if we hadn't let them in to understand what she was going through, because she used to see her sister in kindergarten every day. They had classrooms right next to each other and they used to go visit each other, so for her to be in the kindergarten without her sister, it was traumatic. So they were able to then, you know, take care of her in a very different way and I think they could do it without fear, they could do it comfortably, right, so they could see, like we understand.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. That is a beautiful turn of events, though. You taking something so painful and turning it in something so beautiful for your daughter to help her. I just want to hug you right now. That's so amazing that is really amazing. We have a few more minutes left, so you have you wanted to give suggestions on how somebody can help a loved one who's grieving during the holidays. So we do have holidays coming up. I'm certain there's quite a few events coming up. What is your suggestion to how somebody can help their loved one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love this. Yes, obviously it's going to depend on the phase that they're in, and as long as they're not like in the worst phase, like the despair, then the the there's. There's a couple of things you can do, but the biggest thing, the first stop. The biggest thing, like we said, get out of your ego. It's not about you. Look at what's good for them, and holidays are so loaded with traditions that things are just done in this certain way and this is how we've always done and this is how it's going to be done. And there's so many, there's so many things going on that can be triggers. So one of the big thing is setting new traditions right, exploring if there's something new you can do. I loved what you were saying before and you were talking about hanging up a picture and setting a plate for them.
Speaker 2:But it can also be something like just changing the order that you're doing things in. If you always, if you've always had a meeting where you have your dinner.
Speaker 2:Maybe, okay, then do the song, just changing things up a little bit, talk to the person who's grieving and ask them is this something that you'd like to do different? Is there a way that we can incorporate the person who's gone into it? We actually do, but you were saying with the picture. We have her picture always with us and we actually have her ashes in a like a heart shaped urn right. We have like open living room kitchens. It's right there by us all the time and we always light a candle for her. We always have that there, and then we have a little other things that we incorporate into it, just to have her with us and then. So that's something that other people can do as well as just show that understanding and ask and see like there's something that you would like to do differently. Is there some way we can do it Like can honor the memory? The other side of it is to hold space and leave space for them.
Speaker 2:So a big thing for us that made the holidays become good again was that we stopped trying to fulfill everybody else's wants from us. So, whereas Christmas before used to be, oh, we have to go dinner there. We have to do this and then we have to do that. We just stopped, we just went like, right, no, if we're gonna survive Christmas, we have to do it our way and we just have to do what feels good and that's worked brilliantly for us.
Speaker 2:So, as the grieving, that's what you need to do. You need to give yourself space. You need to allow yourself to not run yourself ragged. You don't have to go do all sorts of things. Find what's actually nice and find some quiet time. Find some quiet space, be by yourself a little bit and then come back in. If you need a time out, go have a time out. And for the supporters, you need to see that you have to give them this space. So if you're after a, if you're, for example, having a dinner party and they're coming to your house for it, you could set aside a little space, a little quiet room where they can go and be by themselves. If they need to time out, for example, are you still there?
Speaker 1:Okay, I hope that you was still recording with just you. It says it's recording still.
Speaker 2:Yeah okay, and we still have the departments.
Speaker 1:For the viewers what just happened. I just lost intermittent for a split second. Things like this happen all the time, but I'm certainly probably still heard what Tanya was saying because it was continuously recording. But I'm just gonna tell you something. This is a very sad story, but this podcast cannot come any more perfect timing because there is a there's a story, and it hits very close to a very family friend of mine who and it's her cousin that had passed away, and this was huge in a local area where we're at and so there was a group of people it was a man and his girlfriend, and then on the cousin and then they had their three kids. There was three kids in the back seat of the car and they were on a vacation trip from Florida. They were in Connecticut at the time and, for whatever reason, we don't know what happened other than they ended up in this car accident and the first the adults all passed away in the car accident. The children were all sent to a hospital with critical injuries and this literally just happened a few weeks ago, and they have a lot of family, a lot of people, that are just like grieving right now from this loss and from this tragedy that happened.
Speaker 1:I really feel like this particular episode. I'm going to gift it to them. I would love to use this because I think, from the things that you shared, Tanya, and the things that we talked about in this podcast, is gonna help them get through the holidays this year. After losing these beautiful people, they have been through a lot of tragic situations. These children are gonna wake up without their parents.
Speaker 1:It's a very sad, sad moment but, like we've talked about, we've got to keep their memories alive. We've got to talk about the positive things, about those that we've lost, and always keep a picture of them, keep a chair open for them. Like you said, light a candle for them. These things are so super important to help those that are healing from this and those of us that wanna support those that are healing. Be there for them. If they need somebody to talk, to be the one that they can talk to, you can be the listener. Just share some love, send flowers to them, bring food to them. They probably are in a point where it's gonna be hard for them to even cook, let alone get a gathering of family. Just see if there's something you can offer to the family that are missing them. That's my suggestion. Do you have any suggestions for them? Tanya?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess the just emphasizing again the giving space, like making sure that they don't have to follow traditions this year. They don't have to do what you're supposed to do and follow the rules in the way things normally go and normally set. Let them do what they're comfortable with and don't push anything more. And then the last thing I would add to that would just be don't expect a thank you, and by that I mean that it's not that they're not thankful, but they just they're just overwhelmed. That's not what they can focus on. Your thank you might come later on, but don't expect it right now. Just know that it's you're there to serve them, not to be thanked.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would say a really awesome suggestion, because most people don't think about that. You know, some people think, oh, I did this not for them, but they didn't say thank you. Well, don't have expectations on that, because they really they're not even thinking about anything right now other than the grief that they're dealing with at this moment. So, tanya, you are a beautiful person. Thank you so much for sharing. I cannot wait to see this three phases three phases of grief course that you have coming. I know that's going to be a huge hit. A lot of people are going to be needing that tremendously, especially after dealing with the holidays. They're going to need something to fall back on and so you having it available for the first of the year, you said to go on to your website and your Instagram to keep following that and look out for it, correct? Yes, look out for the announcement. Okay, perfect. You have any last words you'd like to share with us before we end the podcast?
Speaker 2:No, just give yourself time, like give everybody time right, be patient and just get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yes, awesome. Thank you so much, tanya, for your time. I so appreciate you and I look forward to having you back with us again in the future. So you have a beautiful rest of your day.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me Really appreciate talking to you, and you're such a beautiful soul, so I appreciate everything you shared as well. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you.